Joe " the fraud " plumber

[WakeUpSheeple]

This is hilarious. How dumb can McCain's camp be? They thought they had a real live Joe Six-Pack who’s spurned Barack Obama’s tax plan. But what they forgot to do was check on Joe Wurzelbacher’s background.

Turns out that Joe Wurzelbacher from the Toledo event may be a close relative of Robert Wurzelbacher of Milford, Ohio. Who’s Robert Wurzelbacher? Only Charles Keating’s son-in-law and the former senior vice president of American Continental, the parent company of the infamous Lincoln Savings and Loan. The now retired elder Wurzelbacher is also a major contributor to Republican causes giving well over $10,000 in the last few years.

Now I guess we know why Joe is telling the press that Obama is a "socialist" and that the Obama tax plan "infuriated" him. After all, it would hit families like the Keatings and their minions the hardest.

Not to mention that Obama's economic-recovery plan would put the crimps on influence peddlers like McCain's old friends, the Keating Five.

Obviously, this realization is no ethical black mark on Joe the Plumber’s record (though his failure to pay taxes twice and lack of a plumbing license are questionable), so much as makes apparent the McCain campaign’s utter incompetence when it comes to researching those it chooses to associate with.
By the way, Joe the plumber only made $40,000 last year and is much better off with the Obama plan. And that business that he really has no intention of buying, only grossed $100,000 last year. He's still better off with Obama's plan if he ever decided to buy it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ruXEh8S12E

[sparky-4]

the only problem I had with joe is that he should have bitch slapped O'Bomber while he had the chance:D

[bigfatfurrytexan]

Turns out that Joe Wurzelbacher from the Toledo event may be a close relative of Robert Wurzelbacher of Milford, Ohio.


You see what you just did? You said that he "MAY" be a "close relative". You then went on to use that line of thought and state it as if it were fact.

So, is he or isn't he? And if he is, why would he have a tax lien and be working as a plumber? It doesn't add up and smacks of a smear tactic. Try again....not buying.




Now I guess we know why Joe is telling the press that Obama is a "socialist" and that the Obama tax plan "infuriated" him. After all, it would hit families like the Keatings and their minions the hardest.



That is, once again, smear based on little. The obvious thing to me is that Obama tax policies would hit the small business owners the hardest. To me, THAT seems like a simpler answer and doesn't require all the loosely connected conspiracy implied in your previous paragraph.



Obviously, this realization is no ethical black mark on Joe the Plumber’s record (though his failure to pay taxes twice and lack of a plumbing license are questionable),


And how is that relevant? So, because he struggles and has a hard time with taxes, his opinion no longer matters? SMEAR TACTIC.

Why does he need a plumbing license? Is that a legal issue? No, just a SMEAR TACTIC.


By the way, Joe the plumber only made $40,000 last year and is much better off with the Obama plan. And that business that he really has no intention of buying, only grossed $100,000 last year. He's still better off with Obama's plan if he ever decided to buy it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ruXEh8S12E

So, he doesn't understand the tax code. That is obvious by the fact that he has a tax lien. Just like 99% of America...we don't get the tax code, either. That is part of the problem with America, not Joe.

[WakeUpSheeple]

I wrote "may be" to be fair, I haven't personaly proved or bebunked yet but I am digging. Does look to be true. The point here is that he is a fraud and an obvious plant and a bad one at that by the McCain camp so he would have 27 gotchas during the debate.
First off- He could not run his own business without a license. Fox news is the only station that says he is even legal working under someone elses license. All other stations despute that. At the very least, the local union is checking into this apparent scab.

Next, If he buys it for 250K, he will most likely only net 50K.
rough estimate (business worth 5X net)
Still bigger tax break under Obama. Even if it netted 280K, he'd pay
26 instead of 23% on 30K.

If it nets that, then its a million dollar business he can not afford.
On the tax lien- one doesn't get a lien placed against him without knowing it. He had to of refused to pay it or couldn't afford to. Neither sounds good for "Joe". Sounds like he is part of the problem thinking he can afford to buy or borrow for something he clearly can't. Or just refuses to pay his fair share now.

I'm also checking reports that he has a relative in Wasilla Alaska.

[howdy ya'll]

Well, I have relatives that are democrat......but that does not mean much. Why should that be of importance, heck I may be related to you, that just does not prove that I am working or changing my views and opinions to be in your favor or the favor of my democrat relative.

He may hate his relatives or they may be so distant that they dont even know who the heck each other are.

Oh, and by the way, I have a cousin in Wasilla, and the majority of the people there love her! But that did not MAKE me like her, maybe it is the same relative that Joe has and I am related to Joe the Plumber!

[Patriotic Texan]

This is hilarious. How dumb can McCain's camp be? They thought they had a real live Joe Six-Pack who’s spurned Barack Obama’s tax plan. But what they forgot to do was check on Joe Wurzelbacher’s background.

Turns out that Joe Wurzelbacher from the Toledo event may be a close relative of Robert Wurzelbacher of Milford, Ohio. Who’s Robert Wurzelbacher? Only Charles Keating’s son-in-law and the former senior vice president of American Continental, the parent company of the infamous Lincoln Savings and Loan. The now retired elder Wurzelbacher is also a major contributor to Republican causes giving well over $10,000 in the last few years.

Now I guess we know why Joe is telling the press that Obama is a "socialist" and that the Obama tax plan "infuriated" him. After all, it would hit families like the Keatings and their minions the hardest.

Not to mention that Obama's economic-recovery plan would put the crimps on influence peddlers like McCain's old friends, the Keating Five.

Obviously, this realization is no ethical black mark on Joe the Plumber’s record (though his failure to pay taxes twice and lack of a plumbing license are questionable), so much as makes apparent the McCain campaign’s utter incompetence when it comes to researching those it chooses to associate with.
By the way, Joe the plumber only made $40,000 last year and is much better off with the Obama plan. And that business that he really has no intention of buying, only grossed $100,000 last year. He's still better off with Obama's plan if he ever decided to buy it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ruXEh8S12E



FYI, there is no mention of the issue in this NYTimes piece published at 1:30pm Eastern. Several left-wing blogs and WakeUpSheeple have also erroneously misidentifed a totally separate and unrelated “Joe Wurzelbacher” in Cincinnati as Joe the Plumber — and quietly backtracked after wetting their pants over that find.

The Keating connection claim has sent the left and WakeupSheeple into conspiratorial frenzy. How dumb can McCain's camp be? Joe is a plant! Joe is a liar! Joe is a Fu****** member of the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy programmed by John McCain!

Obama dropped in on Wurzelbacher’s neighborhood, not vice versa. And there are plenty of “close relatives” in families who have nothing to do with each other, do not speak to each other, and stay away from each other’s politics and business.

But Team Obama and WakeUpSheeple will grasp at any straw to bring this guy down. Joe The Plumber Derangement Syndrone at it's finest!!

[sparky-4]

FYI, there is no mention of the issue in this NYTimes piece published at 1:30pm Eastern. Several left-wing blogs and WakeUpSheeple have also erroneously misidentifed a totally separate and unrelated “Joe Wurzelbacher” in Cincinnati as Joe the Plumber — and quietly backtracked after wetting their pants over that find.

The Keating connection claim has sent the left and WakeupSheeple into conspiratorial frenzy. How dumb can McCain's camp be? Joe is a plant! Joe is a liar! Joe is a Fu****** member of the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy programmed by John McCain!

Obama dropped in on Wurzelbacher’s neighborhood, not vice versa. And there are plenty of “close relatives” in families who have nothing to do with each other, do not speak to each other, and stay away from each other’s politics and business.

But Team Obama and WakeUpSheeple will grasp at any straw to bring this guy down. Joe The Plumber Derangement Syndrone at it's finest!!

when O'Bomber takes over, Joe the Plumber and possibly anyone who defended him, might find them self in a re-education camp

[the.shrubinator]

when O'Bomber takes over, Joe the Plumber and possibly anyone who defended him, might find them self in a re-education campI'll put in a good word for ya............ :cool:

[sparky-4]

I'll put in a good word for ya............ :cool:

please don't, I'll have my hands full reloading:D

[SLAPSH0T]

please don't, I'll have my hands full reloading:D

What am I supposed to do? I've devoted my entire adult life (I'm 33 now) to the military, and Obama is about to be my Commander in Chief!! :eek: :( Talk about depressing.

[sparky-4]

What am I supposed to do? I've devoted my entire adult life (I'm 33 now) to the military, and Obama is about to be my Commander in Chief!! :eek: :( Talk about depressing.

relax, I've got it on good authority that troll, I'm mean bush, I mean shrub is going to be "in" with the muslim in chief
just stay on here and she will keep us posted and tell us what to do when she gets her first assignment

[sparky-4]

boy the liberals won't stop trying to destroy a person who publicly challenged their golden child, Obama

not only did Obama send a plane load of lawyers and investigators into Alaska to dig up dirt on Palin, now we find the government computers were used to dig up dirt on a citizen.
sound like Nazi Germany?

this guys speaks out against Obama's tax plan and within hours Obama supporters in government jobs were using taxpayer bought computers and internet to find out anything they could to harm this man and discredit him.
Is this how freedom of speech will be handled under Obama?

nice.:rolleyes:http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2008/10/29/joe30.html?sid=101

[bigfatfurrytexan]

This is one concern i have. Will the Patriot Act come back to bite us in the butt via a "KGB-esque" bureau creation?

[sparky-4]

This is one concern i have. Will the Patriot Act come back to bite us in the butt via a "KGB-esque" bureau creation?

it has already my friend

[Patriotic Texan]

boy the liberals won't stop trying to destroy a person who publicly challenged their golden child, Obama

not only did Obama send a plane load of lawyers and investigators into Alaska to dig up dirt on Palin, now we find the government computers were used to dig up dirt on a citizen.
sound like Nazi Germany?

this guys speaks out against Obama's tax plan and within hours Obama supporters in government jobs were using taxpayer bought computers and internet to find out anything they could to harm this man and discredit him.
Is this how freedom of speech will be handled under Obama?

nice.:rolleyes:http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2008/10/29/joe30.html?sid=101

Its not Nazi, its The "Truth Squad" Coming to town near you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iStZAbf47FA

[WakeUpSheeple]

What am I supposed to do? I've devoted my entire adult life (I'm 33 now) to the military, and Obama is about to be my Commander in Chief!! :eek: :( Talk about depressing.

Thank you for your service.
And its to bad you might be fighting for peace now instead of working for a commander and chief itching for more wars.
Sorry back on topic. Joe is still a fraud.
And when it comes to tearing people down, look in a mirror. (Neo-cons)
Not you personally (slappy) , but if the muddy ( VALENTINO RED ROSE SILK EVENING SHOES WITH HEELS ) fit .........
Sorry back on topic, Joe is still a fraud.

[sparky-4]

Its not Nazi, its The "Truth Squad" Coming to town near you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iStZAbf47FA

the "truth squad" are criminals then

[sparky-4]

Its not Nazi, its The "Truth Squad" Coming to town near you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iStZAbf47FA

and should be in jail instead of campaigning

[bigfatfurrytexan]

Thank you for your service.
And its to bad you might be fighting for peace now instead of working for a commander and chief itching for more wars.
Sorry back on topic. Joe is still a fraud.
And when it comes to tearing people down, look in a mirror. (Neo-cons)
Not you personally (slappy) , but if the muddy ( VALENTINO RED ROSE SILK EVENING SHOES WITH HEELS ) fit .........
Sorry back on topic, Joe is still a fraud.

could you please list the things about him that make him a fraud?

bear in mind, that with a "rogue" Palin, they are sending Joe the Plumber out to stump for McCain. It would likely benefit the Obama camp all too well if they didn't continue trying to smear him.

But i am interested in what is fraudulent about him. Most of the dirt dug up on him is either unethically obtained, or a complete farce as it relates to a different Joe Wurzelbach.

[hockeymonkey]

It is a shame that they could not have just a phrase like "Average Joe", or "Jane"

[bigfatfurrytexan]

It is a shame that they could not have just a phrase like "Average Joe", or "Jane"

did you see the bit on John Stewart about "Tito the Builder" (the guy that was on Cavuto the other day)?

They called his brother Bob in for an interview. LOL...and had Bob the Builder on to do it. HILARIOUS!!!

[sparky-4]

could you please list the things about him that make him a fraud?


sheeple thinks he is a fraud because he disagrees with der furor, Obama

[hockeymonkey]

did you see the bit on John Stewart about "Tito the Builder" (the guy that was on Cavuto the other day)?

They called his brother Bob in for an interview. LOL...and had Bob the Builder on to do it. HILARIOUS!!!

No I wish I would have, I will have to watch for the re run..

[bigfatfurrytexan]

comes on at 1pm today, and then again at 7pm

[maverick]

sheeple thinks he is a fraud because he disagrees with der furor, Obama

okay you can have it all three ways ... is he der furor or is Lenin or is he the anti-christ .... well i can you can "have it your way." if ya want to. :rolleyes:

[Patriotic Texan]

sheeple thinks he is a fraud because he disagrees with der furor, Obama

Meanwhile Sheeple post fraudulent articles and tries to pass them on as fact. LOL

Will the real fraud please stand up!!

[bigfatfurrytexan]

okay you can have it all three ways ... is he der furor or is Lenin or is he the anti-christ .... well i can you can "have it your way." if ya want to. :rolleyes:

nope, he is just a man with different principles of government than me. Not evil, not wrong, not bad, just different.

[sparky-4]

okay you can have it all three ways ... is he der furor or is Lenin or is he the anti-christ .... well i can you can "have it your way." if ya want to. :rolleyes:

it's so hard to pick one I really like:D

[howdy ya'll]

Well, I like 'sheeple'. I really respect his passion for obama. I wish I shared that same passion for our choices for pres. I just do not like some of obama's values and choices and thoughts.

[Patriotic Texan]

Well, I like 'sheeple'. I really respect his passion for obama. I wish I shared that same passion for our choices for pres. I just do not like some of obama's values and choices and thoughts.

The passion people have for BO is one thing and they are welcome to have it, but when it comes to spreading vicious lies about an opponent then it is carrying it a little to far.

I don't agree with BO's ideas but you have to respect a self made man, even if he did live off of the government all his life:rolleyes:

[bigfatfurrytexan]

The passion people have for BO is one thing and they are welcome to have it, but when it comes to spreading vicious lies about an opponent then it is carrying it a little to far.

I don't agree with BO's ideas but you have to respect a self made man

well put. :) (i removed the last part only due to sarcasm....which, too, was well put). :D

[sparky-4]

that part you took out was the best part;)

I live for sarcasm especially when directed toward someone I don't like!

[WakeUpSheeple]

Meanwhile Sheeple post fraudulent articles and tries to pass them on as fact. LOL

Will the real fraud please stand up!!

I have not posted anything, that I know of, that is as blatant as most of the stuff coming out of the McShame/AlaskaAirHead camp. I try to verify everything I post. And just because you don't agree, doesn't make it fraudulent. And do you think right wing sites will address any of these issues.
No, so we verify where we can and take into consideration the source.
GOP'ers think the best defense is a good offense and it is offensive much of the time. If I have posted anything fraudulent, I will remove it but first someone needs to define the word because slander, IMO, is the same thing and nobody seems to care.
(McCain camp defections ) was sarcasm I thought needed no disclaimer.
If everything from the left is considered fraudulent to you then every article from the right is to me.
I do hope we can all come together after next week no matter what happens.

[bigfatfurrytexan]

I have not posted anything, that I know of, that is as blatant as most of the stuff coming out of the McShame/AlaskaAirHead camp.


Using "i am not as bad as they are" is a poor arguement. One should hold themselves to account for the actions, independant of any percieved inappropriate actions of another party.

in Christian teaching, this is the "turn the other cheek" philosophy (i won't get into why Christian teaching likely has that passage completely misconstrued right now). If someone hits me, when i decide to hit them in return I am the one accountable for my violence. they do not control me.



I try to verify everything I post. And just because you don't agree, doesn't make it fraudulent. And do you think right wing sites will address any of these issues.

Absolutely not. Why would they? Politics is about spin, not accountability.


No, so we verify where we can and take into consideration the source.
GOP'ers think the best defense is a good offense and it is offensive much of the time. If I have posted anything fraudulent, I will remove it but first someone needs to define the word because slander, IMO, is the same thing and nobody seems to care.

Likely, if you believe it could be fraud, it is. Independant of others interpretation. Start there. What do you believe to be true?

Slander is a lie, yes. the same as most fraud being a lie. :)


(McCain camp defections ) was sarcasm I thought needed no disclaimer.
If everything from the left is considered fraudulent to you then every article from the right is to me.

There is no honesty in that. "An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind." Does that make sense?

Stand above the dishonesty. Either you interpret it that way, or you don't. Don't make it contingent on acceptance from another person/group.


I do hope we can all come together after next week no matter what happens.

I will drink to that (but i am a Tea Totaler...so it won't be a beer).

[howdy ya'll]

I have to agree with sheeple, he does try really hard to back his info up. But at the same time, on the conservative side, the information is also backed. It all depends on who you choose to believe. TYT was not my choice of a reliable source. After all, they guy is from turkey......nothing against turks

[bigfatfurrytexan]

I do not comment on that. Just on the part that seems to say "if they do it, so can i". Expect more from yourself than that. :D

[WakeUpSheeple]

There is no honesty in that. "An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind." Does that make sense?

Stand above the dishonesty. Either you interpret it that way, or you don't. Don't make it contingent on acceptance from another person/group.



All Democrats going blind does not make sense either.

The right seems to play by their own rules.
And cry foul when the truth hurts them to much.

Your words: Politics is about spin, not accountability.

I do expect more from myself and wish others did also.


Your words: Stand above the dishonesty. Either you interpret it that way, or you don't. Don't make it contingent on acceptance from another person/group.

So you say fact checking or bebunking is bad?

Does the right-wing endorse any fact checking sites or do they find conflict of interest with all of them? What does that tell you?


You bring up religion-
Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment that you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

And TYT is biased and I do not agree with all of their arguments.
Those points of view, you will not see me repeating.
But that does not make all of their POV untrue.

[Patriotic Texan]

I have not posted anything, that I know of, that is as blatant as most of the stuff coming out of the McShame/AlaskaAirHead camp. I try to verify everything I post. And just because you don't agree, doesn't make it fraudulent. And do you think right wing sites will address any of these issues.
No, so we verify where we can and take into consideration the source.
GOP'ers think the best defense is a good offense and it is offensive much of the time. If I have posted anything fraudulent, I will remove it but first someone needs to define the word because slander, IMO, is the same thing and nobody seems to care.
(McCain camp defections ) was sarcasm I thought needed no disclaimer.
If everything from the left is considered fraudulent to you then every article from the right is to me.
I do hope we can all come together after next week no matter what happens.

It seems the rumor is fading quickly.

Joe " the fraud " plumber

This is hilarious. How dumb can McCain's camp be? They thought they had a real live Joe Six-Pack who’s spurned Barack Obama’s tax plan. But what they forgot to do was check on Joe Wurzelbacher’s background.

Turns out that Joe Wurzelbacher from the Toledo event may be a close relative of Robert Wurzelbacher of Milford, Ohio. Who’s Robert Wurzelbacher? Only Charles Keating’s son-in-law and the former senior vice president of American Continental, the parent company of the infamous Lincoln Savings and Loan. The now retired elder Wurzelbacher is also a major contributor to Republican causes giving well over $10,000 in the last few years.

Now I guess we know why Joe is telling the press that Obama is a "socialist" and that the Obama tax plan "infuriated" him. After all, it would hit families like the Keatings and their minions the hardest.

Not to mention that Obama's economic-recovery plan would put the crimps on influence peddlers like McCain's old friends, the Keating Five.

Even the DailyKOS can't prove it.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/16/133831/42/1001/632600

Joe the Plumber Not Related to Keating


UPDATE: A Kos diarist did some deeper digging and this story is FALSE. Turns out there are a few Wurzelbachers in Ohio and not all of them are related.

http://news.aol.com/political-machine/2008/10/16/joe-the-plumber-related-to-keating/4

[WakeUpSheeple]

The first line of first post is the point.
How dumb can the McCain camp be?


The relation of Joseph to Robert is not proved, but it strains credulity to suggest that the Wurzelbachers of America are not somehow related.

But the point of the story is not that Charles Keating came back from the dead to urge his son-in-law's third cousin to haunt Obama's campaign. The point is, how could McCain use as the emotional linchpin of his debate a man who is so easily connected, even if spuriously, to his greatest political embarrassment? Hell of a coincidence that his surname is tied to the Keating 5 and he happened to live on Keating Ave. in Arizona.

The last thing John McCain wants people thinking about right now is Charles Keating.
Can't his 15 minutes be over already. He's been talking book deals, possible run for congress, wants to be a country music star and already has a manager to handle all his options. By the way, I followed your links and nothing is debunked yet. Check comments at the sites and find many still trying to prove or debunk.

[bigfatfurrytexan]

I have a pretty unique last name. And know of a few with that last name that i am not related to in any sort of way. It doesn't strain credulity.

The whole thing smacks of a smear campaign. John Stewart is in the tank for Obama big time, and even he thinks what has happen to Joe The Plumber is ridiculous. He didn't ask for 15 minutes of fame, all he did was ask some tough and honest question of Obama and for that he deserves having the proctological exam apparently.

[sparky-4]

should the people who misused government/taxpayer equipment and services be subject to any punishment that would otherwise be applied to a government employee who abused any other taxpayer trust?
Say abuse of expense accounts for trips or misuse of government vehicles?


back 20 years ago when I was in the military I got reported and written up for stopping off on the way back from the motor pool and picking up my uniforms
I pulled off of the street not 50 feet from the road, parked, walked in and back out in 5 minutes and because I was in a government vehicle, I was reported and given written reprimand.

These Obama worshipers will get cabinet level post in his new regime for abusing taxpayer property

[Patriotic Texan]

You must follow rules if you are conservative, that is the rule:p


You see, Conservatives hate making new rules but they do obey them; while Liberals love making new rules but never follow them.




http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/Shelton_C20070904.jpg

[bigfatfurrytexan]

that is a good cartoon. summarizes it quite nicely, i would think.

[WakeUpSheeple]

The elephant has tripped over the low bar.

Understand the greed, self-dealing, conflicts of interest, squandering of taxpayers' money, waste, raids on the public treasury -- all wrapped in a litany of lies -- and you have a handle on how the Bush administration operates, and how money greases this despicable machine.

It is impossible to keep up with the political-insider maneuvers, influence-peddling, favoritism and cronyism underway in the slimiest administration in more than a century.

And for Bush and company, everything is done deliberately and with clear purpose, controlled or manipulated in fine detail.
All endorsed by McSame. Eight years is enough!

[Patriotic Texan]

The elephant has tripped over the low bar.

Understand the greed, self-dealing, conflicts of interest, squandering of taxpayers' money, waste, raids on the public treasury -- all wrapped in a litany of lies -- and you have a handle on how the Bush administration operates, and how money greases this despicable machine.

It is impossible to keep up with the political-insider maneuvers, influence-peddling, favoritism and cronyism underway in the slimiest administration in more than a century.

And for Bush and company, everything is done deliberately and with clear purpose, controlled or manipulated in fine detail.
All endorsed by McSame. Eight years is enough!

WOW, do you have any links or proof of what you say? slimest LOL http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:yAZdAZvOYYFuSM:http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/brainiac/slime-thumb.jpg




Dodd D, Frank D and Obama D - Three Blind Mice (leave a trail of crumbs from the cookie jar)


Plenty of regulation did nothing to stop the current crisis (starting with the Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae collapse).

Chris Dodd thinks that no one enforced the regulations. Barney Frank blames Reagan for this (with deregulation).

Yet neither man noticed that under their noses (and in spite of Bush Administration warnings) the two quasi-governmental companies were run aground and their execs took HUGE payouts.

Barney and Chris - here is a newsflash for you. It was your legislation and your fellow social engineering laws forcing “diversity” down the throats of the banks. Barney, your GOAL was to float loans to under and un-qualified people.

Here is a statement from Mr. Frank himself - in 2003 when Bush tried to stop the shenanigans long before the fit hit the shan:



I want to begin by saying that I am glad to consider the legislation, but I do not think we are facing any kind of a crisis. That is, in my view, the two government sponsored enterprises we are talking about here, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, are not in a crisis. We have recently had an accounting problem with Freddie Mac that has led to people being dismissed, as appears to be appropriate. I do not think at this point there is a problem with a threat to the Treasury.

The more people, in my judgment, exaggerate a threat of safety and soundness, the more people conjure up the possibility of serious financial losses to the Treasury, which I do not see. I think we see entities that are fundamentally sound financially and withstand some of the disastrous scenarios. And even if there were a problem, the Federal Government doesn’t bail them out. But the more pressure there is there, then the less I think we see in terms of affordable housing.

I must say we have an interesting example of self-fulfilling prophecy. Some of the critics of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac say that the problem is that the Federal Government is obligated to bail out people who might lose money in connection with them. I do not believe that we have any such obligation. And as I said, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy by some people.

So let me make it clear, I am a strong supporter of the role that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac play in housing, but nobody who invests in them should come looking to me for a nickel–nor anybody else in the Federal Government. And if investors take some comfort and want to lend them a little money and less interest rates, because they like this set of affiliations, good, because housing will benefit. But there is no guarantee, there is no explicit guarantee, there is no implicit guarantee, there is no wink-and-nod guarantee. Invest, and you are on your own.

Now, we have got a system that I think has worked very well to help housing. The high cost of housing is one of the great social bombs of this country. I would rank it second to the inadequacy of our health delivery system as a problem that afflicts many, many Americans. We have gotten recent reports about the difficulty here.

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have played a very useful role in helping make housing more affordable, both in general through leveraging the mortgage market, and in particular, they have a mission that this Congress has given them in return for some of the arrangements which are of some benefit to them to focus on affordable housing, and that is what I am concerned about here. I believe that we, as the Federal Government, have probably done too little rather than too much to push them to meet the goals of affordable housing and to set reasonable goals. I worry frankly that there is a tension here.


So there you have it. Barney closed his eyes and didn’t want to believe that the writing was on the wall. The social experiment is okay (affordable housing at any cost) - but the evil businesspeople (the “Rich”) are the bad guys. They deserve what they get. Don’t come to Barney for a nickle he can’t give you one because he doesn’t generate anything but hot air.

The high and mighty legislators know what is best for the poor. Why bother letting financial reality into the picture?

Barney Frank’s ignorance and Chris Dodd’s corruption should have them in the hot seat answering questions instead of asking them.

Before you heat the tar and gather the feathers for Republicans and Bush in particular, remember who got the most campaign contributions from a quasi-governmental “company”:

Here are the top recipients of campaign contributions from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, 1989-2008:

1. Dodd, Christopher J D-CT $133,900

2. Kerry, John D-MA $111,000

3. Obama, Barack D-IL $105,849

[Patriotic Texan]

Bush, GOP Warned of Fannie-Freddie Crisis...In 2003

Take a trip in the waaaaaaayback machine to September 11, 2003, when those heroic Democrats in Congress (bullied and oppressed by those eeeevil Rethuglikkkans) were busy trying to avert the impending financial meltdown of Fannie-Freddie trying to figure out the best way to smear/impeach/destroy George Bush.

From the Paper of Record, NYT:

The Bush administration today recommended the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago.

Under the plan, disclosed at a Congressional hearing today, a new agency would be created within the Treasury Department to assume supervision of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the government-sponsored companies that are the two largest players in the mortgage lending industry.

The new agency would have the authority, which now rests with Congress, to set one of the two capital-reserve requirements for the companies. It would exercise authority over any new lines of business. And it would determine whether the two are adequately managing the risks of their ballooning portfolios.

The plan is an acknowledgment by the administration that oversight of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- which together have issued more than $1.5 trillion in outstanding debt -- is broken. A report by outside investigators in July concluded that Freddie Mac manipulated its accounting to mislead investors, and critics have said Fannie Mae does not adequately hedge against rising interest rates.

Get all that? CONGRESS was in charge of the oversight authority. The GOP wanted to reform it - the Democrats wanted to preserve the status quo. It's all there - black and white, clear as crystal.

And get this glorious, fabulous little tidbit from Barney Frank (D):

''These two entities -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- are not facing any kind of financial crisis,'' said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. ''The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.''

Really, Barney? What say you now? Raines? Obama? Hellooooo? Why should we trust your party to do ANYTHING right in this mess you helped create and exacerbate?

These are the same people that Barack Obama wants to advise him and to put in charge of the nation's economy. America can't afford more of these people. What they've done to Fannie-Freddie is just a drop in the bucket of what they'll do to the nation's economy.



Do I need to continue? both Bush and McCain tried to warn of the coming mortgage melt down but Frank (D) ranking Democrat on house financial committee kept fighting it so he and Dodds could keep collecting their campaign contributions.

[bigfatfurrytexan]

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u202/priamos_1/Almost%20Everything/People/Old/ohsnapoldman.gif


Good, excellent points, PT. :D

[WakeUpSheeple]

Snap back at you.
The conservative spin machine went into overdrive after the financial crisis exploded the claim that unregulated markets always work best. Talking points fed to sympathetic columnists and reporters told an alternate, racially tinged tale: poor people were to blame. In the mythos they created, the Community Reinvestment Act forced banks to “loosen underwriting standards” and to lend to the poor and those with poor credit, forcing Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the “800 pound gorilla in the room,” to careen down the path of bad loans, dragging other lenders with them. Incredibly, conservatives blame insufficient regulation of Fannie and Freddie, and cite the Clinton administration as the architect of the mortgage industry’s collapse.

Of course, none of this stands up to scrutiny. Here’s a guide to the most widely spun myths:

Myth #1: De-regulation had nothing to do with this crisis

The Facts
Conservative de-regulation left Wall Street with no cop on the beat. Bush’s conservative appointees rolled back regulation and oversight of banks, insurers, lenders, and credit raters. - The explosion in subprime loans after 2000 were made by unregulated mortgage companies, and the vast majority of them were issued to higher income borrowers, not low- to moderate-income borrowers. - The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1999 (GLBA) dismantled Depression-era law that had prohibited bank holding companies from owning other financial companies such as investment, commercial banking, and insurance companies. GLBA ignited a wave of mergers and hampered government regulators charged with preventing conflicts of interest and risky financial behavior.

Myth #2: Private lenders were pressured into giving out risky loans

The Facts
Private lenders—not the government-backed Fannie and Freddie—issued the vast majority of subprime loans, and to low- and moderate-income borrowers in particular. Fannie and Freddie did not guarantee and securitize large quantities of subprime loans. - In fact, Fannie Mae actually lost market share because it chose not to “participate in large amounts of these non-traditional mortgages in 2004 and 2005” because it “determined that the pricing offered for these mortgages often was insufficient compensation for the additional credit risk associated with these mortgages.” As economist Dean Baker stated, “Fannie and Freddie got into subprime junk and helped fuel the housing bubble, but they were trailing the irrational exuberance of the private sector….In short, while Fannie and Freddie were completely irresponsible in their lending practices, the claim that they were responsible for the financial disaster is absurd on its face—kind of like the claim that the earth is flat.” - In testimony before the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, Lehman Brothers CEO Richard Fuld acknowledged that Fannie and Freddie’s role in Lehman’s demise was “de minimis,” or so small that it does not matter.

Myth #3: Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac Caused the Crisis

The Facts
While some are attempting to scapegoat Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, economist Dean Baker recently stated that while Fannie and Freddie “got into subprime junk and helped fuel the housing bubble,” they were “trailing the irrational exuberance of the private sector” and actually lost market share to private subprime lenders in the years 2002-2007, when “the volume of private issue mortgage backed securities exploded.” - In a 2006 Securities and Exchange Commission filing (available here) covering its activities in 2004, Fannie Mae stated: “We did not participate in large amounts of these non-traditional mortgages in 2004 and 2005.” In the report, Fannie Mae also noted the growth of subprime lending and reported, “These trends and our decision not to participate in large amounts of these non-traditional mortgages contributed to a significant loss in our share of new single-family mortgage-related securities issuances to private-label issuers during this period.” - Additionally, Lehman Brothers CEO Richard Fuld testified before the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform on October 6, 2008, that Fannie and Freddie’s failure played a minimal role in Lehman’s demise.

Myth #4: The 1977 Community Reinvestment Act is to blame for the current financial crisis

The Facts
Several media figures have attempted to connect the financial crisis to the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA), originally passed in 1977 and since amended. However, according to housing experts, a large number of subprime loans were not made under the CRA, which applies only to depository institutions. Additionally, a study released earlier this year by a law firm specializing in CRA compliance estimated that in the 15 most populous metropolitan areas, 84.3 percent of subprime loans in 2006 were made by financial institutions not governed by the CRA.

However, the claim that the CRA is responsible for the current crisis ignores several crucial facts: - The CRA does not cover independent mortgage companies, which issued the vast majority of the loans underlying the crisis. The act applies only to depository banks and thrifts (savings and loan associations) that are federally insured. According to University of Michigan law professor Michael Barr in testimony before the House Financial Services Committee, just 20 percent of the subprime mortgages since the late 1990s were issued by CRA-covered lenders. Thus, 80 percent subprime loans were made by lenders not regulated by the CRA. - The CRA actually created more responsible lending. San Francisco Federal Reserve Bank President Janet L. Yellen rejected the “tendency to conflate the current problems in the subprime market with CRA-motivated lending,” and noted “that the CRA has increased the volume of responsible lending to low- and moderate-income households.” - The act was passed in 1977, well before the subprime loan bonanza occurred. In fact, the Bush administration’s weakening of the CRA coincided with the subprime boom. - Banks did not engage in an orgy of reckless subprime lending to meet CRA obligations; they did so for they same reason they always do: to make money. Only this time, deregulation allowed them to get paid not just for making the loans, but for turning them into securities and trading them (see below).

Myth #5: Progressives have opposed strengthening oversight over Fannie and Freddie

The Facts
Several media figures have accused progressives in Congress of opposing stronger oversight of two mortgage giants, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. In fact, Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA), chairman of the Financial Services Committee, and his predecessor, Rep. Michael Oxley (R-OH) made efforts to enhance regulatory oversight on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, including the Federal Housing Finance Reform Act of 2005 and sponsoring the Federal Housing Finance Reform Act of 2007. Both of these bills called for a new agency to oversee and regulate Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

Myth #6: Congress funded ACORN in the bailout package

The Facts
Numerous media figures reported that Congress tried to steer money to ACORN in the recent housing bailout bill. In fact, neither the draft proposal nor the final version of the bill contained any language mentioning ACORN. Those making the false claim were misrepresenting a provision—since removed—that would have directed 20 percent of any profits realized on troubled assets purchased under the plan into two previously established funds: the Housing Trust Fund and the Capital Magnet Fund, which, under the law authorizing them, distribute funds through state block grants and through competitive application processes, respectively.
Now, the bubble has popped and the markets have crashed, and conservatives are desperately casting about for someone else to blame for the consequences of their failed policies.

Their efforts to pass the buck are an insult to our intelligence. Conservatives policies dominated the past eight years while this crisis grew out of control. This is the legacy of their failed policies—it is time for them to own it.

http://howdidthishappen.org/facts/


Sorry, this is joe plumber thread. Will start a new one on what actually happened.

[maverick]

excellent "snap back" point mr wake up. of course we can play the blame game forever and ever ... so lets just start changing things and fix the things that are broken. a lot of things got broken and there are a lot of major policy disasters ...... so why should we continue with your same old party programs for the next 4 years.

[bigfatfurrytexan]

excellent "snap back" point mr wake up. of course we can play the blame game forever and ever ... so lets just start changing things and fix the things that are broken. a lot of things got broken and there are a lot of major policy disasters ...... so why should we continue with your same old party programs for the next 4 years.

exactly.

a turd is a turd, be he conservative or liberal. it is silly to play partisan, as they both stink. "Sucking less" is no way to decide who you will vote for.