Crisis In America's Churches

[pauldrinkard]

http://www.theologicalstudies.citymax.com/page/page/1573625.htm

Few surprises in this article given that today's churches are more about money, politics and rock music than they are about teaching people the Bible message. Most "christians" do not know that Jesus was a 2-year old child (not an infant) living in a house (not a stable) when the so-called "wise men" (actually pagan astrologers) found him.

[bigbrother]

http://www.theologicalstudies.citymax.com/page/page/1573625.htm

Few surprises in this article given that today's churches are more about money, politics and rock music than they are about teaching people the Bible message. Most "christians" do not know that Jesus was a 2-year old child (not an infant) living in a house (not a stable) when the so-called "wise men" (actually pagan astrologers) found him.
Please site your source of information about Jesus being 2 years old and the wise men being "pagens".

Or is that some strange dream you are living in?

[pauldrinkard]

Matthew 2:

1 After Jesus had been born in Beth′le‧hem of Ju‧de′a in the days of Herod the king, look! astrologers from eastern parts came to Jerusalem, 2*saying: “Where is the one born king of the Jews? For we saw his star [when we were] in the east, and we have come to do him obeisance.” 3*At hearing this King Herod was agitated, and all Jerusalem along with him; 4*and on gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people he began to inquire of them where the Christ was to be born. 5*They said to him: “In Beth′le‧hem of Ju‧de′a; for this is how it has been written through the prophet, 6*‘And you, O Beth′le‧hem of the land of Judah, are by no means the most insignificant [city] among the governors of Judah; for out of you will come forth a governing one, who will shepherd my people, Israel.’”
7*Then Herod secretly summoned the astrologers and carefully ascertained from them the time of the star’s appearing; 8*and, when sending them to Beth′le‧hem, he said: “Go make a careful search for the young child, and when YOU have found it report back to me, that I too may go and do it obeisance.” 9*When they had heard the king, they went their way; and, look! the star they had seen [when they were] in the east went ahead of them, until it came to a stop above where the young child was. 10*On seeing the star they rejoiced very much indeed. 11*And when they went into the house they saw the young child with Mary its mother, and, falling down, they did obeisance to it. They also opened their treasures and presented it with gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh. 12*However, because they were given divine warning in a dream not to return to Herod, they withdrew to their country by another way....
16*Then Herod, seeing he had been outwitted by the astrologers, fell into a great rage, and he sent out and had all the boys in Beth′le‧hem and in all its districts done away with, from two years of age and under, according to the time that he had carefully ascertained from the astrologers."

Astrology itself is of pagan origin. Astrologers do not worship the true God and are, therefore, pagans.

[howdy ya'll]

What version of the Bible are you reading???? It is way different from the King James Version.

But I do agree with you.....church is more of a party than a religious group. Money, big building, rocking out with the preacher and scandle.

[Yochanan]

Even more Christians think angels sing.

[howdy ya'll]

Yochanan
kind of figured you guys were working the forum again......lol bring it on, but only the KJV. Some like good religious discussion, but that is what it has to stay.....discussion! Good News or any others translations have too much of mans version of what the scripture really say.....

[howdy ya'll]

Matthew 2

12*However, because they were given divine warning in a dream


Astrology itself is of pagan origin. Astrologers do not worship the true God and are, therefore, pagans.


Then obviously these 'pagans' could not have had a divine dream.....not worshiping the true God, they would only see their dreams as a dream, not divine. So this cannot be according to what you have posted.

[Laura]

If God never spoke to/appeared to pagans, non-believers, etc, how was anyone converted to Christianity over the last 2,000 years?

Just throwing something in the pot.

[howdy ya'll]

If God never spoke to/appeared to pagans, non-believers, etc, how was anyone converted to Christianity over the last 2,000 years?

Just throwing something in the pot.

So, are you saying that these pagan astrologers were then converted because of their divine dreams to Christianity and therefore no longer pagan? So, it is now safe to say these men were wise?

[Laura]

Well, not Christianity, because it didn't exist yet. But yes, it's always been my understanding that the God led the pagan wise men to baby Jesus, and they then believed. To me it's an example that God can speak to anyone if their hearts are open, and we should never discount anyone because they don't believe... The last shall be first!

[howdy ya'll]

Being that these men very well could have been from Persia, they very well could have been Jewish. They knew enough to go into Judea and to King Herod, because that is where one would expect a king to be born.
They knew they were looking for a Jew. They had to have been wise.

Not to mention that studying the stars does not mean you are an astrologer, that is how people navigated way back (even today). It could mean they were astronomers. That is a huge difference.

These wise men had a divine purpose...maybe to spread to all the Jews in their land about the Messiah and quite possibly to give very expensive gifts to Mary and Joseph to help them escape from Herod to Nazareth.

[howdy ya'll]

It seems thru out the Bible, that when God speaks thru dreams, that in most instances these men are considered prophets or representatives of the Lord. Such as the case with the wise men. Apparently, these men were of divine and righteous nature having been lead by the spirit of God as well as their spiritual insight and knowledge of the signs and birth of the Saviour.

[Yochanan]

Yochanan
bring it on, but only the KJV.

Okay, only the KJV (for the present).

Well, since it's King James's (Personal) Version, he had to have his name in it, didn't he?

Was the writer of the book following Hebrews and before 1 Peter named James? Here's how it starts:
Ἰάκωβος θεοῦ καὶ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ δοῦλος

Hint: The first word is not James.

When someone can prove to me that there are NO errors in the KJV, then I'll bow down and worship it too.

[howdy ya'll]

I have already stated that there are many man's input in the KJV and many more in all the rest. That is why I use the KJV only

In fact, I can prove there are many....what exactly is your point?

I thought the real issue in this matter was the wise men.

[Texas Streak]

Ἰάκωβος θεοῦ καὶ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ δοῦλος

The translation of the aforementioned is "James of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, a slave". The modern translation is as follows: "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ."

Don't start throwing Greek around here cause I'll call you on it. ALSO, James was Jesus' half brother.

Wanna start something, I've got access to 14 different Bibles and I can read ALL of them VERY well.

Hint: The first word is not James. I really hate to inform you but the first word IS James!

I really don't know where you get your information but you had better go back and do some studying before you get in deeper than you already are!

[howdy ya'll]

Well....I guess thats it on this.....

[Texas Streak]

Καλύτερη τύχη την επόμενη φορά.

"Better luck next time."

[howdy ya'll]

And all is quiet.

[bigbrother]

Didn't take long to let the wind out of his sails. Guess TS put him in his place...

Well done!